- law dawg
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One of our readers suggested we discuss coping mechanisms What tips or tricks do you have for staying sane in your line of work? What do you to manage the stress of clients and bills? Do you turn to booze or to psychotherapy or both or something entirely different? For those of you who turn to fitness, how do you make time? For those of you who are so successful that you have already paid off your student loans, how do you cope with more money than you need? How do you keep yourself grounded? What advice you have for those who will be where you are in a few years?
I meditate.
I prioritize. My law practice is important and I do the job well; but being a lawyer doesn’t define me. My family, my connection to nature, and even my favorite baseball team are way higher on my priority list than my law practice.
Try not mentioning to people that you’re a lawyer. When other people want to make your being a lawyer a topic of conversation, politely steer the conversation to a different topic. Dont’t talk about work when you’re not working.
If being a lawyer is the single most important thing you can say about yourself, re-evaluate your life.
Not mentioning you are a lawyer is something i have also tried to practice. Proud of my work, but it almost inevitably becomes the topic of conversation.
I learned to avoid the topic of my occupation after being stuck on a plane from Las Vegas to New York with a recently divorced male passenger. I had to endure 4 hours of how much he hated his ex wife, what a lousy job his attorney did for him, and how incompetent the judge was.
When people ask what you do for work, what do you say?
If someone asks, then I answer truthfully but very generally, i.e. i do not discuss areas of practice etc., but if someone really wants to know then fine. I’m not going to tell them i’m a chimney-sweep or something. I don’t need to be bombarded with war stories, questions, or requests for free advice in areas that I know nothing about. And all the rest.
I tell them I sell Buicks, and they look like a LeSabre man.
I’m a marine biologist.
If people ask what type of law or what I do as a lawyer I just tell them it’s a lot of emails and paper pushing (in-house).
I change filaments in light bulbs.
“I work in an office downtown.”
I tell people that I’m a shepherd.
If that doesn’t work, I say that I know how to make a ewe turn. That usually shuts them up.
I don’t normally bring it up unless asked. That has been my policy for at least 20 years or more and I would recommend it to anyone.
As a whole, lawyers are not very self aware of how uninteresting our job is in the context of social situations and conversations. I fuckin HATE listening to lawyer war stories and I do my best to spare everyone around me, lawyer or not.
I’ve been a lawyer for 15 years. My kids don’t hear war stories because, by and large, they aren’t my stories to tell.
Yet people who don’t know me will often ask what I do and in which area of law I practice. I try my best to change the topic. I cannot imagine they know how annoying and intrusive it is to be asked. And for the life of me I’ve never understood why so many are interested. As a conversation-starter “what kind of lawyer are you?” is fucking lame.
And there, my day is now ruined.
When I’m asked that lame question, “What kind of lawyer are you?” I respond, “A really good one.”
Suggest: expensive one
You must not do criminal defense…
You have never been a criminal defense attorney? We have some pretty interesting stories to tell. Our clients’ excuses alone are fascinating, let alone their actual crimes.
I like talking about my job, in the right context. When it makes for an interesting topic.
But I completely agree with all of this.
I get why a new law school graduate has the impulse to get a customized license plate with ESQ or JD or to put those in their instagram handles, or whatever, but that stuff makes me cringe.
I’d rather my friends think of me in terms of almost anything but my degree and job.
The fitness issue has continually vexed me over the last couple years, but honestly more because of small kids than work. Prior i used to just go in the morning to a gym in the 500 AM range. With the kids not necessarily comfortable leaving until they are a little older perhaps. I’ve essentially tried to incorporate starting work at the time i used to go to gym and going to workout prior to their pickup to varying level of success.
Tried psychotherapy. Meh. In a world where i consistently felt time crunched, using 45-60 minutes to talk almost had a stress multiplier effect for me.
Psychotherapy is useless when the issue is that you are surrounded by utterly self interested and aggressive people.
If you really believe that everyone surrounding you is “utterly self interested and aggressive”, then maybe you’re the problem. After all, you’re the common denominator. Perhaps your real problem is a crushing lack of self awareness, who knows?
But a therapist won’t tell you that; it’s not in his best interest to risk offending you and interrupting his income stream.
Weak take.
such empathy
Try a gym with daycare services like Lifetime Fitness.
OP Here, to be clear i certainly see the value in the therapy idea, and they really helped me the idea of prioritizing but the simple fact of the matter is that since the therapist worked bankers hours it was just a time crunch to do so during the limited in office time but i would highly suggest.
Drink, meditate, therapy, hookers and drugs.
This is timely. I prioritize work first, kids second, my aging parents third, and myself a very distant last. Despite putting work first because I’m the sole bread winner, I don’t make what my male friends who have less stressful careers with far more leisure time than I do. I haven’t had a vacation in years save for maybe a weekend away here and there with kids. I see the disgusting messes opposing counsels file and I wonder why God is punishing me. I get really good results. But I feel like I’m on a hamster wheel going nowhere. Oh to have a male genitalia and more confidence than competence. It’s soul crushing otherwise.
Sole bread winner. Are you divorved or do you just have a shiftless husband?
It’s probably your complaining
God is not punishing you; you are punishing you because you believe in a God who punishes when more likely it is a case that we deploy our free will poorly. I used to be you. I have been there. Sometimes we become so absorbed in doing that we fail to manage our ability and right to not do.
Take care o’ yourself first–the list of those relying on you is long, including clients. Without your mental/physical (and yes, yes, emotional) health, neither you nor any of those other people on that list will have everything that you provide now. Wish I had learned that lesson long ago, before life imposed it on me.
Prioritizing work before kids is not necessary. Sure, we may spend more time at work than with our kids, but there’s no need to think in terms of work being your #1 priority.
You win have having the most useless comment of the day! Hooray!🎉
Sabbath observance. Think of your sixth day as the last day of the week and the seventh day (whether that’s Saturday or Sunday to you), as a bonus day liberated from law. Friday, or Saturday, is your Monday Eve. Get everything lined up so that you can be free one day. If woke up tomorrow and suddenly there were only 6 days in a week, we would all find a way to make it work. So just make it work. If you don’t believe in God or are not religious, give yourself the 7th day to be free from law.
Between being a parent and being a lawyer, there really isn’t much of me left. I like to read books, play poker online, watch baseball, play piano (I suck, but it’s relaxing).
Observation
There is a lot of whining going on here. Yes, our profession can be stressful. Take all steps necessary to mitigate.
But there are many ordinary jobs that have great stress and consume all of your time, or otherwise beat the crap out of you, for example managing a Denny’s or hanging drywall.
Be thankful for the career you have, because I am sure you would find a “job” not to your liking.
The practice of gratitude is a wonderful coping mechanism.
Gratitude works wonders for me when I am spiraling about work. It feels silly, but writing down or mentally listing the things I’m thankful for (spouse, pets, safe place to live, stability, friends, family) helps me remember what REALLY matters and makes everything else feel a lot more manageable.
Agreed on the gratitude….notwithstanding, there are real problems and pressures associated with litigation that someone at Dennys or working construction never has to deal with.
As a cautionary tale, if you are turning to alcohol to numb the anxiety and you feel depressed, you need to take a step back. Not just for you but for your family and members of your firm. I regret not seeing the slow decline in my own life a few years ago that lead to a lot of pain.
We do need to treat each other better.
Yes, I relate to not recognizing the decline in my life from alcohol. However, I am one of the fortunate ones who accepted help before I lost my spouse, children, house, bar card, got arrested…There is a solution. For me, the solution does not include alcohol.
I am eternally grateful for coping mechanisms that do not include alcohol.
Remembering that the ability to complain about being a lawyer in the US is a privileged first world problem to have helps.
“pressures associated with litigation that someone at Dennys or working construction never has to deal with”
No offense intended, but you elevate yourself or have little experience with life. People working service jobs, particularly in food services management, are under pressure every day, call outs, disputes between servers, or having to come in at midnight to cook because the night fry cook quit. Balancing the registers, on and on.
day
OP here…..I stated working for an electrician when I was 14 (small town shit), moved up to roofers apprentice at 16, landscaping and general construction out of high school. Worked my way through college waiting tables, tending bar, more roofing, landscaping and outside labor.
One hour in litigation is more difficult mentally and emotionally than a week of getting triple sat at a restaurant on Friday night, digging irrigation ditches for 14 hours in the southwest sun or carrying shingles up a ladder over and over again for 12 hours….I’ll take a double shift and everyone’s back of house work before I pick up the phone and deal with some of you assholes – any day!
“’ll take a double shift and everyone’s back of house work before I pick up the phone and deal with some of you assholes – any day!”
Maybe its time for you to resign and do something else?
Weak take, there are a lot of jack holes out there, and f em all.
SOMEbody does not understand the meaning of tongue in cheek.
I hear he is good at landscaping and roofing.
Who you people with all this time on your hands for navel gazing and extracurriculars? Get back to work already!!
Bag on counseling and therapy all you wish. I used to. For losers and suckers. And then I was ordered to do it for not fabulous reasons. And it helps. Sometimes it helps more than others but it helps. My therapist has no shortage of patients so the notion that he/she is just doing it to keep the relationship going is balderdash. Sometimes its profound. Sometimes its 55 minutes of my best standup material. Sometimes its venting my spleen. Sometimes its an excuse to have to leave the office before 10 pm and to have to go somewhere for 55 minutes and actually do self-care. If your counselor or therapist sucks, get a different one.
Get a mentor (no matter your age or experience), colleague or circle. I have always been a really social gregarious attorney. I believed that I was surrounded by colleagues in my practice. And then I had a sit-down with a number of them who noted that I never asked for help. That I am the attorney who they call with questions but I never do the same. I came to confuse certain for correct. That our relationship thus was and is not really that well rounded because its uneven. I have started to take breaks and to seek out colleagues off of whom to bounce my ideas and uncertainties. As you nourish your professional and personal connections, you will be amazed how much better you feel because of how much better you really will be.
The 2 things that helped me the most outside of family: a dog and working out. Seems to have really helped my SEVERE depression.
Up until about 5 years ago, my wife and I had two cats (no kids – had issues and just did not want to adopt). Anyway – I had always thought of myself as a cat person, and not a fan of dogs – too much work; had to take them on walks, had to take them outside many many times/day (they don’t do litterboxes), etc. Last cat passed and decided to get two small dogs (think mini-poodle size). I should’ve done this years ago – I’ve lost weight walking the dang dogs, gotten in better shape, ‘force’ myself to take them to dog parks and generally get outside more. The limitation is travel restrictions, but now we just go on trips to places we can take the dogs. More sunshine – it’s been very positive. Cats never gave a crap when I got home except when time to eat; dogs go nuts when you get home – much different dynamic.
I never had dogs when I as a child. I knew nothing about dogs. When I heard that people allowed dogs on their beds, I was horrified. Then one by one, my teenage doughtier brought home 3 puppies. She promised to take care of them, of course, but really has not. But guess what? I became a dog mom. They sleep on my bed. The sit at my feet. They are the most caring, loving beings I have ever known. Do not underestimate dogs. They make life a joy.
Practicing law can get me down to the point where i convince myself everyone (family, friends, co-workers, clients, society at large) would be better off without me, but i cannot convince myself that it is true of my dogs. True life savers.
As a law student, I am curious to know what hours people are realistically working in various areas to get an idea of work life balance. (Big law, public defender’s office, personal injury, etc.).
Regardless of the area of law, you should expect to work around 60 hours per week in your first 3-5 years of practicing law. After that, perhaps you can back it down a bit, but then you are just leaving money on the table.
You really need to enjoy the practice of law, because it is a long 40+ year career and it will be miserable if you are already concerned about how many hours you will be working.
Exactly. You need to be ready to work when you start. I put in several weekend days as a new hire. Not every week, but at least once or twice a month. Worked til 9 occasionally. And I grew a lot because it was important to me.
Now, I don’t work on the weekend unless I’m in trial, and I’m done at 3:00 way, way more often than I actually work past 5.
But I also respond to emails and take calls and occasionally log in in the evening or on a Saturday morning if someone needs me.
Work life balance is a mentality.
Agreed. I have learned it is about working smarter not harder. Billing is often the key to job stability and financial success as it is objective and quantifiable. During the months leading up to trial, the 60 hour week can easily become an 80 hour week. However, I do what it reasonable and necessary. The extra work is for my edification; I like to be polished in Court.
Please don’t be expecting to work 35 hours a week, done at 5pm every day, and make partner your first year. Expect to pay your dues and be willing to earn respect through demonstrated work ethic, desire to learn, and pitching in to help the team. Don’t dare act like you’re better than the support staff who have been doing this for 20+ years and can run circles around you for your first three years, they are not your servant. Put in an honest day’s work, show up and learn how to be a lawyer. They don’t teach this in law school.
Civil PI here. Have worked for about 3 years since graduating. With the exception of a handful of times, I’ve never worked more than 40 hours a week. Hardly ever bring work home. I’m also in the top 5-10% of earners in my class.
Congratulations! There is a very good chance that you are doing something right. However as a 28 year lawyer, I can tell you that the top 5% of earners at the 3 year mark are not necessarily the same people at the 10 year mark (when the disparity in earning is greater). I came up at the outset of the CD Boom when people would chase an extra $1000 to jump firms regularly. They had no mentorship or loyalty, never learned to develop their own clients or carriers and did not develop their own book, and skipped between firms that had no loyalty. The people who chased the short-term buck forfeited the long-term professional development in quite a few cases.
4:53 here. That’s a fair assessment and good advice. Thank you for the insight
What are good fee percentages when working as an associate at a PI firm? Just wondering what is considered good when it comes to fees per case, origination fee percentage etc. Thanks.
As an associate, I supposedly received 2 per cent of all attorneys fees if I worked a certain number of hours on a case. Yet, every time I settled a great case there was always a problem giving me my share. I remember mediating a case and settling for a high 6 figure sum, which we never expected to receive. The partner thanked me by sending me a snarky text message. Adios.
Similar–I settled a low 7 figure case and the partner said I did not work sufficient hours on the case to warrant a cut. I left.
https://www.facebook.com/share/1Lf9nSoWBu/?mibextid=wwXIfr
Nailed the choice of music. Well done, CM.
I can’t hear the music, but I assume your comment was sarcastic and wanted a good laugh 🙁
What about firms which receive a bad review on Glassdoor and immediately instruct their current employees to submit 5 star reviews to balance out the poor reviews from former employees? When all the new reviews are from current employee and they are submitted on the same day, one should be suspicious.
Advice: don’t work at LBBS. Road to nowhere, no matter how much you have to offer.
You mean the following is not true?As a member of the firm’s nationwide platform, which includes practices in dozens of specialties and a community of more than 3,000 attorneys and business professionals, you will work alongside talented individuals who will support you as you progress along your own unique career path.
Feels true.
Failed/fake attorneys gravitate towards LBBS and OBC.
There have been many stellar attorneys that have worked at LBBS, but most seem to end up leaving. There have also been many subpar attorneys, just like most other firms. The equity partners are excellent attorneys, but don’t develop/share with their underlings or give them the resources or assurances they need to stay. I’ve had several close professional contacts that have worked there in the last two decades and they all tell the same story. I get the impression it’s an organizational challenge, because most of them have really liked the equity partners they worked with.
Sounds a lot like LBBS is the new ATMS. May they suffer the same fate.
Seriously, did anyone see this coming? Can anyone help me makes sense of this?
https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/politics-and-government/las-vegas-attorney-tapped-for-homeland-security-position-3389323/?
No sense at all. David would work for Trump?
He’s 100% MAGA, everyone knows this…
I had no idea.
Long distance running. Wipes out every concern other than putting one foot in front of the other by around mile 9.
Does anyone know what is going on with the family court website?