- Quickdraw McLaw
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We all know that there are many unhappy lawyers out there–even among readers of the blog. One of them would like your input on whether you need to love what you do. The reader says, “I don’t know if it’s just the post-holiday blues, but I’m really struggling to dive into my work right now. I don’t hate my job, but I don’t love it either. Don’t get me wrong–it’s a decent place to work and I’m satisfied with the pay, I’m just not fulfilled with the work. What do people do when they get like this? Do I try and find a new law job, do I take a new approach to the current one, or do I pack my bags and travel the world until I find myself?”
What are your thoughts?
Run for judge.
…travel the world until I find myself
“They got a name for that, Jules: it's called ‘a bum’. And without a job, a residence or legal tender, that's exactly what you're going to be: a fucking bum.” Pulp Fiction.
I am always delighted when our local legal eagles come up with a timely pop culture reference. There is, apparently, life outside the law office.
Timely? While PF is a great movie, it will be 24 years old this year…
I am not a lawyer, but love the blog. I have a question for all of you lawyers. What is the average amount of student loan debt incurred? I realize that number can vary widely.
10 to 20 years worth….$100 to $150 k with 6-8% interest rates for state schools with cost of living. That is not including undergraduate loans and/or the fact that for-profit and private lawschools charge significantly more such taht you could have $200 to $300k. Also, average legal salaries are not what you think.
I went to a private school on a full ride with cheap state school undergrad and ended up with 120k in debt from cost of living and undergrad loans. I made six figures right out of law school and my loan payment is still soul-crushing a few years in. I can't imagine what people with 250k in loans do, even if they make 180k out of law school.
Graduated in 2011 with $82k. I've paid it down to $54k. I refinanced a couple of years ago at just under 4% so I'm in no hurry to pay it off.
Graduated in 2014 with $183k in debt. I'm in public service work though, so I only pay $385 a month. In 6 more years, whatever loans are still outstanding will be forgiven without a tax penalty. Thanks Obama.
I had $120k in 2010 at 7.25%. That was law school only.
Best advice I ever got. I got into Ivy League for undergrad but had a full ride to my state school. My attorney-mentor said save the money for law school. I took the full ride and graduated debt free.
I got in to 6 of the 7 law schools to which I applied, some with great USN&WR rankings; however the state school law school once again offered as close to a full-ride in scholarships as possible (I think the non-covered books and fees were around $2500 a year 20 years ago). But it was the Midwestern state school. I wanted a prestigious diploma. I wanted schools that had ivy on the walls. I had a friend who was 3 years ahead who graduated from GTown the same year I graduated undergrad who graduated with $175,000 in law school debt (20 years ago and that did not include undergrad debt). She had a plan to pay it off like a mortgage– 30 years. The thought of being 56 years old (or more than the length of my lifetime to date) before I got out from underneath my law school debt was crushing. My attorney-mentor again advised to examine where did I want to spend my career. If I wanted to be in NY/DC, then go to schools which fed those markets and bargain for the debt; if my goal was to practice in my home state, stay home, save the money and build relationships in that community through clerking during law school. So I took the full ride to the State School and graduated with some money in my pocket from clerking during law school instead of being under crushing debt.
I guess I'm lucky. Went to a good state school, with in-state tuition. I paid about half the cost, my folks paid the other half, graduated with $0.00 debt. Those were the days I guess. At the risk of dating myself, I think my entire degree probably cost what most of you paid for a semester.
I'm similar to 9:48 – went to local state university, so had no debt going into law school. Also took the smaller, less prestigious law school route that gave me a half ride scholarship. Graduated in 2008 w/ approximately $30K in debt (helps that I got married right before law school and my spouse was working and made enough to cover rent/expenses). Was able to pay off the school loans in a few years.
As an aside, would be helpful if every student was told repeatedly "only borrow as much as you need and no more" I realize some have to max out on loans, but some do just because they put a piece of paper in front of you and say "look how much we can loan you, oh and you can get private loans on top of that, do you want to borrow as much as you can?"
Graduated law school in the mid 1990s with about $110K in student loan debt. Consolidated loans and was paying on a twenty year plan. I earned a nice settlement from a PI case and used all of the money to pay down debt (about 70% of total). Took the next 5 years to pay the rest. It was a great day for my family and I when student loans were paid off, finally. However, now facing the prospect of financing my kids' college education which is now much higher than when I went to school.
These all sound about right. So to answer the question, normal student loans is about $100-150K for out of state or private schools, and about $50-$100K for Boyd or somewhere that offers some scholarships. But it really does depend on how much each person takes out for "living expenses." I graduated from Boyd a while back (not lucky enough to be Class of '13) with about $65K in loans and that was pretty much only for tuition. I worked part time to cover living expenses. A partner at a firm I clerked for gave me some pretty sage advice as a 2L. If you live like a lawyer while you're in law school, then you're gonna have to live like a law student when you're a lawyer. So yeah, if you go, borrow as little a possible.
11:50,
My kids are still young, but my law loans are not yet paid off. I will help my kids with school, but will probably insist that they do the first two years at CSN to save money. Then I'll recommend that they move out of state, work for 1-2 years in the field they want to eventually end up in (to get in state tuition) and then help them with the state school (probably in Utah). My kids will go where they want to go, but I just don't think UNLV can offer the same kind of complete college experience that the state schools in Utah (or other states) can.
I went to UNLV night law school. Made 70k a year during the day. Luckily I landed an almost full scholarship (still had to pay for books and about 3 credits a year). I graduated with no debt. There's no doubt that some clients/partners/anonymous internet trolls look down their noses at my UNLV degree. But the financial independence is really nice.
For just law school $150k. With undergrad, $170k.
Who makes $180 out of law school??? No one in Vegas right, please tell me right because that would be soul crushing to this 15 year lawyer.
To the question from the blog – sounds like this person asking the question is burned out. Happens to the best of us and the only way I have gotten through it is to try to find some other passion and view the job as just that on a bad day- a paycheck. On a good day at work maybe you'll be more fulfilled. If someone finds a "cure" for burn out please let me know. I've been battling it for about 3 years now myself. Changing jobs might help temporarily but not if you're doing the same kind of work. I have a buddy that went from private practice to a totally different law job and that person is in love with their new life. So maybe that's the answer, figure out a way to use your JD to earn money and find a new job. Also – random advice but, make sure you have an office with a window, listen to music at work and find your work bff to joke with.
9:03 here. Not to my knowledge. I think top of market here is $115k, though there might be a firm or two that pays more. I think the only cities where a significant number of firms pay $180 are NYC, DC, San Francisco, LA, Chicago, Dallas, and Houston. Maybe one or two more; I have no idea what pay is like in Philadelphia or Boston or Charlotte for example.
The highest salary I've heard of in Las Vegas was $120k for a newly-minted associate.
I'll take it!
NewlyMintedAttorney–haven't you been practicing for almost 8 years now? You should be making more than $120K.
Don't worry NewlyMintedAttorney, you'll always be newly minted to me. (But yeah, assuming salary is a motivating factor, $120k/yr should be attainable at this point in your career).
I am not the real NewlyMintedAttorney. My name is Ryan; I inherited the account from the previous NewlyMintedAttorney, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from is not the real NewlyMintedAttorney either. His name was Cummerbund. The real NewlyMintedAttorney retired as a partner three years ago and is living like a king as in-house counsel.
Thank you Dread Pirate Roberts, the Princess Bride lives on.
I'm in the legal field and worked for 15+ years in the prosecutorial side of things, and after working for five years on a different side I'm burned out as well! I think you should try something different, or at least from a different perspective. However, the AG/DA's office pay is not near as high as private practice, which is a definite consideration! But there is a lot to be said for actually wanting to go to work every day, rather than dragging yourself in, like I have been doing. Another thought is that you might try a different office atmosphere, where people actually like each other. That makes a huge difference there as well.
Great advice. I would be very careful jumping too much. I had lunch last week with a former co-worker who I worked with for 5 years. We really liked working together, but this attorney soured towards the end. Felt burned out in our firm and became downright surly. Knew the grass was greener. Unceremoniously left and joined another firm. That lasted around a year; she switched sides because she determined that happiness was at the other counsel table. That lasted 6-9 months before that ended. This attorney was beaten down and lost at lunch.
She still blamed the tide turning while working at our firm. Could not fathom that the tide might have been inside of her. Meanwhile the rest of the firm has stayed together and continues working. Be open to searching for what is missing, but consider whether those issues are not beyond you but inside of you.
"the tide might have been inside of her." Didn't you tell her not to eat the Tide pods?
I graduated in the early '90s with about $60,000 in debt. It was that low because 1 received a 3/4 scholarship from the University of San Diego. I worked in government for three years, then private practice. I was able to pay off the debt by 1997.
In 2006, I became a contract lawyer and traveled off and on internationally for the next 8 years. (Don't get married or have kids). I highly recommend it. Work is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Spend your money on what you enjoy.
(I am back to work full-time now, but I am in-house and have it pretty cush. We will see how long it lasts, though.)
Pity the poor souls who take out huge loans to go to law school, graduate, and then can't pass the bar.
Like Ryann Juden? Allegedly?
Why did you go to law school? Do that.
Except for many people, the reason that they went to law school turns out to be a ridiculously misbegotten idea, too much SVU. Some of the happiest lawyers are people doing things that they never guessed that they would do.
I went to law school to make sure insurance companies make more money by telling every plaintiff they are not really hurt.
Do you DAB after every lowball settlement?
8:07 surely you don't deny that most plaintiffs aren't really hurt, do you? Not all, but most. Bring a bs claim, get a 'lowball' settlement. And no, running up large medical bills does not prove that a person is hurt. Everyone knows how this game works.
What is going on at the Office of Bar Counsel? For such a relatively small office it has more turnover than Akerman and Alverson put together. Maybe the reason that they are so horrible to deal with is because they are always in a state of flux.
I definitely got burned out doing litigation. Found a niche and figured out what I really like to do. After a five years, I was hired to do something I really like – Manage 🙂 It is hard trying to get into another area, especially when you have been in a certain line of practice for a while. It is like no one wants to take a chance on you unless you are a cheap newbie.
Jim Pengilly was recommended to get a 6 month and 1 day suspension for allegedly pulling a gun in a deposition.
Marissa Border kills somebody, she gets no discipline. I lose a penny I lose my license. Makes sense.
Oh Jesus, obsessed biker is back. 9:59 – the connection that seems lost on you is that the bar is going to (rightfully) be more concerned with misconduct that occurs in the practice of law.
Thank you, Marissa.
While it's great to be enthusiastic and highly engaged in your job, simply not disliking it puts you in an excellent space. You aren't drained by it emotionally, but also aren't consumed by it….so you can give it as much cool, dispassionate effort as you need to simply meet your financial goals….and no more than that.
Then you're free to give the rest of your time to passions. Family, independent film production, craft brewing, that novel you always wanted to write….
This post is excellent but not something I can follow. Working in a coffee shop is a job. However there is an aspect to this profession which makes it more than a job and which precludes dispassionate effort. There is a very passionate, very emotional part of what we do for a profession. Balancing the needed investment and ramifications of what is at issue is difficult at times.
Sure, if you feel that way. However, don't impute your emotional entanglement with what you do to everyone else who also practices law. Sure, it's easy to get worked up about opposing counsel's conduct in a case but it's also easy to get worked up because the other barista didn't do his prep work on the prior shift.
Nobody goes to prison because the early shift barista didn't clean the espresso maker. Nobody loses their life savings because the guy working the window is not slinging the Big Macs fast enough. It is ok to find emotional balance to deal with the stress of the profession, but we are human.
This will make me sound crotchety and generation x-ish, but one doesn't need to love their job. My job is a means to support myself. If I happen to like it, that's great (and I do). But the only people that I've ever known to truly and honestly say they love their job, all needed others to help support them (like my brother). if you want time ddoing something you love, take up a hobby.
Like someone else already said, I have gotten burnt out and weary doing litigation–even when the other side is reasonable and not unnecessarily adversarial. Litigation isn't good for the soul.
Another Gen-Xer reporting in. I've been support staff in litigation for almost 20 years, and I heartily concur with 7:48. Some days all you can ask of yourself is to come in, do good work, and go home. Am I fulfilled? Sometimes. Most of the time, I am comfortable in my role as a small cog in a giant machine. I have other outlets for gratification and happiness. The change you seek can't come from your employer; it can only come from within. I do not envy you attorneys. You work your asses off.
Signed,
Support Staff