- Quickdraw McLaw
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Someone mentioned in the comments yesterday that Probate Commissioner Wesley Yamashita is retiring on November 15. More commented about the mess that will be left in the wake of his retirement. Any other thoughts on the world of probate law in Vegas? Who is your go to person for referrals when a friend asks for someone to handle a probate case? Do you have your own estate in order? Did you draft your own estate planning documents? Have you used LegalZoom to do it? Any other major developments in that area of law that the rest of us should be aware of in our own practices?
People give PI a bad wrap, but there there is no bigger rip off in the world than estate planning attorneys. Sure, your millionaire and billionaire have a great need to plan, but for most everyone else who just maybe needs a simple revocable trust packet to put things in order, it is a total rip off. These dedicated estate planning firms will charge the equivalent of 2-3k an hour to fill in their forms. It's insane.
Right. Because nothing ever goes wrong with a "simple revocable trust packet."
Dude, I don't get paid to fill out forms. You want to get someone to do that, find one of those unlicensed feralegal "document preparers" or download the ripoff package from Legalzoom. I get paid to see the future, and to help the client see the future. If it isn't what they want, I help them to change it. I get paid to be stupidly familiar with the infernal revenue code and its many updates, twists, turns and PLRs.
But most of all? I get paid so the client knows he/she can call me before doing something absolutely stupid that will blow up the estate plan. In order words, I get paid for legal advice. Not for documents.
WOW! @11:59 AM, easy there, you're going to blow a gasket.
"Feralegal" – A feral paralegal. Love it. Adding to my vocabulary.
Which raises the question, why isn't the Bar more active in prosecuting UPL?
The document prepare can only take down the names of executors, beneficiaries etc. But show me any person who won't ask "what does that mean…? or "what if…? And who drafts the document preparer's form? If the doc preparer writes anything, it is UPL. Is see this crap all the time, but never see the Bar active in this area.
@11:59- Your post is both correct in part and demonstrates the problem. Lawyering does involve detailed knowledge that is to be infused into a document. With that said "seeing the future" does not require $3000 to draft a simple will and revocable trust. While you may be wicked smaht, your paralegal that is filling in the blanks in the template forms might be wicked but he/she is not worth the flat fee to fill in the blanks. Lets not kid ourselves– probate firms have (good) templates which is the reason that 90% of the wills and trusts we see coming out of those firms look virtually identical other than names and addresses.
I am all for the OBC getting involved in pushing UPL issues (although the State Bar has the power to prosecute lawyers professionally but no authority to do anything to notarios other than refer them to the very busy CCDA in hopes of a prosecution. However I am all for the Court and the bar getting involved in addressing the reasonableness of fees for template estate planning documents.
You all reminded me that I need to update my holographic will.
"…but no authority to do anything to notarios"
I am not sure that is correct. As I recall, UPL complaints are handed to the disciplinary board for the region. Also, I think I saw complaint in district court brought by the bar against a document preparer, but of course I didn't save the cite.
Maybe somebody with connections to the State Bar magazine can get an article published on reporting UPL and process?
@ 11:23
Nonsense. Every lawyer uses templates for drafting, especially true for PI cases. With regard to estate planning it may be that the end result is similar to other clients trust. That's because many have similar financial circumstances and thanks to Trump, we don't often worry about estate taxes anymore.
That said, the initial meeting takes an hour. We analyze financial, marital, dependent and incapacity based on the client's circumstances. We educate the client, answering many many questions. Only then do we select the clauses that are relevant out the thousand or so we maintain. Some custom drafting for unusual situations. At signing, another hour to explain how the will and trust work.
Then there are difficult situations for blended families, his/her separate property, whose child receives what, and unfortunately, cases where future incapacity is certain.
For all the folks complaining about the Bar not regulating the UPL, the Bar only regulates attorneys. If the Bar receives an UPL complaint, they simply refer it to the local DA's office for review. UPL is a crime in NV.
I do very little estate planning, but a substantial amount of estate litigation. $3k is NOTHING compared to the tens of thousands of dollars that are paid when people do DIY estate planning, online forms, forms bought at a particular brick and mortar store here in town or POD/DOD estate planning. An overwhelming majority of my cases have some origin in somebody trying to do estate planning on the cheap.
Paralegals are arguing at the Nevada Supreme Court? Wow! Someone should look into that!
Or hell, even probate without litigation costs involved.
I started keeping track of probate fees once, just for fun. Open up a case, check the type (set aside, summary, general), check the final distribution order. One of my favorites? Over $23k in hourly billing for a summary administration. $2-3k wasn't unusual for set asides (to the extent fees were even mentioned.) Summary admins were more typically in the $3k-9k range. These aren't Boogeyman scare tactics ginned up by fly-by-night firms trying to scare Grandma. These were actual costs incurred by actual people because their family member died with a cheapass will or no planning at all.
Makes a solid estate plan a freaking bargain by comparison.
With Cadish, it was lower court.
There is no reason a basic will and trust should cost $3,000. Lets run the numbers:
1) 1 Hour consult with client to discuss assets, directives etc and give overview of process.
2) 1/2 – 1 hour Follow up with client to answer questions
3) 3/4 hour drafting
4) Final will signing, including last minute revisions – 1/2 to 1 hour
These numbers are heavy on time. hourly rates should be $300-$500. So even if the attorney does everything a basic will and trust should be $1500.
Ideally a paralegal or legal assistant does everything they can. Questions on the general process can be cut down with pamphlets and handouts to refer the client while they think about the prime questions. Automation can cut down on drafting or handled by a less expensive process.
Sure, you may want to have them bring in all their bills, insurance policies etc and do a comprehensive evaluation, but for most people this isnt necessary.
This also doesn't apply to family business owners, or special needs trusts etc. Also doesn't apply to lots of changes or complicated family situations with conditional gifts etc.
I love the defensiveness of the probate bar over their cabal. I am a commercial litigator who is in probate court more than I care to be. The arguments above are a stalking horse. No one is saying a solid estate plan is not a good idea. But $3600 for simple will is outrageous. That is 9 hours at $400 an hour for something that was largely template. You want people to stop using $99 LegalZoom documents? Stop charging them $1500 an hour for your paralegal to auto-replace names and addresses in your will form.
For what it's worth, NRS 7.285(3) (Unlawful practice of law) states: "The State Bar of Nevada may bring a civil action to secure an injunction and any other appropriate relief against a person who violates this section." And because the statute specifically grants injunctive relief, the Bar does not need to prove the customary elements for an injunction. Simply establish UPL, and the injunction issues. I was hired at the Bar in 2000 to split time between UPL and discipline. But, discipline always takes precedence given finite resources, even during my tutelage. That's in part why the focus shifted from prohibiting nonlawyer legal services to addressing the unmet legal needs that fuel UPL by democratizing the services nonlawyers can provide (similar to proliferation of non-doctor medical providers).
David– great to hear from you. You did bring injunctive actions (Radosevich and Nash as a couple of examples). But since you left the SBN and got screwed by the NSC/SBN (yes we all know and it was not right) injunctive UPL actions have gone by the wayside.
I refer all probate matters to a friend, but damn, I'm scared to put her name on here because of the nastiness of some commenters.
I put a referral up a few years ago and that attorney, who is a genuinely kind person, got slammed in the comments. I've also been called names on here. It's just not worth it.
I have never been named in the comments here but it is one of my greatest fears. I do not ever name any attorney in my comments for this reason. If I see someone getting trashed, and I know them, I will jump in and put in a kind, truthful word for them. This is followed by the rote, tired, "Thanks [Originally named attorney]."
I have been named in the comments. Vicious personal attacks against things not related to the practice of law. Luckily I had a fair number of people who jumped in to my defense which was appreciated but it was really nasty and had no moderation. I think the admins have taken a tighter rein on things being personal (going after looks or allowing ad hominem attacks). But yeah I would rather people refer matters to me privately than ever have my name mentioned on here.
11:50 AM,
That sucks. I'm sorry that happened. FYI from a random reader. I give zero credence to attacks on attorneys in these comments.
I don't care what you think as long as it's about me
that you 45?
https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/conventions/nab-cancels-2021-las-vegas-convention-2440839/
We are still losing way too many conventions!
NAB was one of the bigger conventions to come to town. My fear is that we will begin to lose many of these permanently.
Consider that LV used to be an entertainment rich but comparatively inexpensive place to spend a few days. Today, the city has become a very expensive venue. Many convention attendees are average Joes and Janes, possibly a factor in the PBR pull out.
I've got clients that have been bitten by a feralegal. Its not pretty.
I have good news- they may be entitled to compensation!
I refuse to speak to paralegals who reach out to me on behalf of their client. I write to the self represented party and say I'm happy to speak to them and if they want to keep their paralegal in the loop that is on them.
Has Kevin Powers (LCB Attorney) ever won a big case? His arguments in front of the NSC were awful, and he was roundly shot down but the justices. His efforts on the tax issue failed miserably. The guy makes buckets of cash and always loses. I need that job.
Here's a gripe about a chickenshit thing some attorneys do.
If an attorney says to me, "I'll have to check with my client about your request for a continuance," it's because he or she lacks the spine to tell you no himself or herself. Either grant the continuance or state the real reason why it shouldn't be granted and stand behind it. Even worse is when they try and convince that they will recommend granting it. LOL.
You must not have major corporate or insurance clients. Some of them pull the purse strings on every decision, including extensions because they have internal pressures not to delay lawsuits.
There is no reason an attorney should have to ask a client whether they can grant a continuance, if they do tell them to go read NRCP 3.2 and make their own decision.
Reread 5:25's comment.
Some of us have clients in custody who will not be happy if we agree to continuances keeping them in custody longer without consulting them.
What kind of continuances? Continuance of a motion hearing or discovery deadline, agreed 100%. Continuance of trial not so much.
The problem is that some of these big institutional clients want you to get their permission before you staple two pieces of paper together. My position on that is that, hey, I still have to do business in this town long after your case is over with, so don't tell me how to run my calendar or whether I am "allowed" to behave with professional courtesy. I don't have that many big institutional clients these days, surprise surprise. Can't say that I miss dealing with that kind of BS though.
Being involved in Law Firm Marketing a long time, this is a fun discussion. Most attorneys and firms believe that marketing is about increasing a book of business. That's the easy part. Increasing your book by creating better client relationships with better clients, that is the actual, deliverable and measurable result of successful law firm marketing.
Winning sports teams regularly replace their weakest players with better ones.
Winning law firms and solos do the same with clients. It works in all practice areas.
The business of law is not just about more clients (a bigger book).
It's about attracting better clients, and creating mutually beneficial relationships with those clients. That brings increased profitability and a better life for most attorneys.
Simply stated, if you find yourself complaining too often about a client, replace that client with a better one.
It's easier than you think.
#freetheparalegal
#freebonniebulla
#freeyamashita
Registered Document Preparation Services
Codifed at NRS 240A
Complaint filing here: https://www.nvsos.gov/sos/licensing/document-preparation-services/complaint-filing-process
Not that there are not that many registered document preparers. You will still have to be proactive when you see UPL.