- Quickdraw McLaw
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Reuters has an article about law firms with the youngest and oldest partners. 75% of Kirkland & Ellis partners have earned their law degree since the year 2000. The Amlaw 200 average number of partners who got their degree before 1989 is 27%. The longest practicing partner in Big Law is Weil, Gotshal, and Manges partner Ira Millstein at age 95. That got us thinking–what is your plan for retirement? Do you plan to retire early or keep working until you die? Clio has a Guide to Preparing for Lawyer Retirement that says 15% of lawyers work past age 65. Are you part of that group? Why? Here’s a piece from the ABA Journal titled, ‘What does it mean for a lawyer to retire?” If you had the opportunity to retire early and didn’t take it, why not? Is debt a deciding factor? What about those of you who are in mid-career? What is your plan? What are you doing to get ready? Do you plan on living out your years here in Vegas or are you going to retire elsewhere? What advice you have to offer or have you heard that you use to guide you?
This is a great post. My plan is to have my retirement plans set so I can retire at 60, if I choose. I am thinking of working past 60, but perhaps on a part time basis or of counsel type position. My hopes are that I will have enough financial resources that I will not need to work at age 60. I have been licensed in Nevada for over 20 years.
Spend a few minutes with this compound interest calculator and see why Einstein said compound interest is the 8th wonder of the world. https://www.investor.gov/financial-tools-calculators/calculators/compound-interest-calculator
Read this to learn about retirement and get motivated to retire early: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/
Check out Dave Ramsey's site for more motivation and information. https://www.ramseysolutions.com/retirement/types-of-retirement-accounts
Start saving by maxing out your 401k at work, get that free employer match.
Then go to Vanguard or other low fee brokerage site to open a ROTH IRA and an after tax brokerage account. Save until it hurts, then save some more.
Employer 401K match? Looking at you ID FBU Law Firm
Not counting on social security, what is the amount of money needed to retire? Is a couple of million enough? I just keep saving.
Not sure if 11:02's question is rhetorical or not… but assuming not, please read the links 10:25 posted above. I also recommend Your Money or Your Life.
How much you need for retirement depends entirely on a realistic projection of your expenses. It might not be as much as you think. Or, especially if you or your family members have serious health issues, it might be more than you think.
If you don't already know exactly what your expenses are today, start there. Then you can work out a plan that is realistic and achievable. If done correctly and you're not just plainly unlucky, you will see steady progress that should make it easy to stick with the plan.
10:42 AM: I see them, too. Oh yes, I see them.
I plan on retiring by age 55. I'm 10 years away. I already despise the unnecessary bitterness of most opposing counsel, I can't imagine having the patience beyond age 55. I'll likely work doing very limited legal work or something in another field (Starbucks barista or something equally mindless) to keep me from getting bored.
I am over 60 and you are absolutely correct about having the patience to deal with a hole lawyers. The only thing that keeps me from calling some of these a holes, a holes is knowing they would go crying to the bar and I would be the one getting in trouble as opposed to them for being a holes.
@10:34a – reminds me of American Beauty and Kevin Spacey's character getting the job at Mr. Smiley's.
30 hours a week at Starbucks gets you health insurance.
10:34–and that, I think, is kind of the point of becoming a lawyer–so that we can have the flexibility and resources to retire in our early to mid 50's, rather than working till 65 or 70 like many other professions.
That said, many lawyers, no matter how much they earn, live well beyond their means, become obsessed with status and making a big ostentatious show of their money and what it can buy, and they find themselves still working in their 70's on a full-time basis just to meet the monthly expenses of such life style.
As far as the a-holes that 10:34 and 10:44 allude to, that is a large part of the stress involved in the dynamic that being a lawyer ages us 15 years prematurely.
But many bemoan the loss of civility in the legal profession and pine for some time in the not so distant past when everyone's word was their bond, everyone was so supportive and cooperative, etc.
Well, I've been licensed for 35 years and that time period never existed during my tenure practicing. There were just as many a-holes back then.
Yet, still, we all have a tendency to romanticizes matters and to be nostalgic for how it was 20 or 30 years ago. But when I look back on it, things weren't that different. Technology has certainly changed, but the percentage of a-hole attorneys has not noticeably reduced.
On another note. If anyone is interested in making public comments concerning the applicants for Department 11, the interview meeting agendas can be found at the link below. The interviews are being held on November 15 (9:00 a.m.) and 16 (8:30 a.m.) by blue-jeans and in-person, and each session has a period for public comment near the beginning of the meeting — interested to see if there are any comments, now or then.
https://nvcourts.gov/AOC/Templates/documents.aspx?folderID=21766
10:58, I've been wondering the same thing. How long ago was this actual period of time when everyone's word was their bond, and when no lawyers tried
to sandbag opposing counsel, etc.
Answer: Never. The period did not exist, at least not within the memory of anyone still practicing.
That's not true in crim. Most of us on both sides of the aisle are good with each other's word. There's always a couple of outliers though.
Just turned 59. Student loans and all consumer debts were paid off long ago. Kids are done with college, all without loans. All that's left is a very manageable mortgage, and that should be gone in 2-3 years. Net worth now, conservatively, is around $1.5m.
I'm actually enjoying the practice of law more now than at any other time. I'm better with clients, I'm sharper and more efficient than ever before. And I rarely get riled by opposing counsel the way I used to. So I may do this for another 8-9 years, even though I don't really need to. But it's nice to have the option.
If I can offer any advices to new lawyers it's to get your student loans paid off fast. Don't let them hang around. Drive an inexpensive car and live inexpensively until they're paid off. Use you bonuses to knock down big chunks off your balance. Get that financial cancer out of your life. Don't wait around for the government to bail you out. Even if loans are some day written off, you just know there will be a catch to it.
Very well done at 11:08. I hope new lawyers with debt listen to your advice.
Yes, well done and sound counsel.
early 30s here. barred since 2015, took a mentor's advice to burn through loan repayments as quickly as possible. occasionally thrown off at the thought of missing out on forgiveness programs, but overall grateful to be debt-free and able to focus on other things. from what I can tell, living on a shoestring budget for those first few years was worth it for the peace of mind alone.
I like your advice 11:08 with a slight difference in perspective. Pay off student loan and consumer debts absolutely. The killing off of the mortgage is one thing that I think is pennywise and pound foolish. Couple of reasons to consider
(1) 4:42 below discusses the homestead limit which means paying off your mortgage may expose you to creditor claims if your equity is too high;
(2) mortgage rates are around 2.5% on a 30 year fixed mortgage. The S&P 500 has YTD return to 20.41%. In other words, you would be far ahead taking your extra pennies and investing rather than paying down your mortgage.
Just something to think about.
I agree with 9:43. I have about $50k left on my student loans. I have that much, and a bit more, in a "fun" brokerage account. My gains in that account since the beginning of the pandemic are a little over $20,000.00. I was talking to my Dad last night and told him I was going to just pay off the loans with that money. He said I shouldn't because the expected market return is higher than my interest rate. I disagree. There is no guaranteed return. It doesn't matter what your chip count is at the table at any moment, it only matters how much you cash out with. I'm cashing out. Plus, I like keeping my monthly nut super low, so low that it is impossible to generate stress for me. I have enough other stress from other things in my life.
But the mortgage? Yeah, I'm not paying that off any time soon. Inflation is more than double my interest rate right now.
I am early 40's, mid-career. One of the best life choices I ever made was to take out the smallest possible amount in student loans. My loan was never a burden and did not interfere with starting serious savings in my early 20s.
I'm not yet in a position to retire, but I am working toward early retirement (before 50). Or, at the very least, a career change. I actually have a great job, so I feel guilty just writing this. But I'm burned out and can't stand the thought of doing this much longer.
If I sold off all my assets, paid off all my debt, I believe I have 1.6 million in assets presently. I plan on retiring in approximately 10 years. I'm curious where other attorneys are at.
So, net worth? Is that what you mean? Net worth as a straight number is meaningless without additional context like your current age, your living expenses, retirement plans, etc. Also, if you sold all your assets in your hypothetical as you state, where do you plan to live? Will you need to use some of the $1.6M to buy a house? So, yours is not a good inquiry, imo.
I've been practicing about 15-16 years. I have been paying my student loans off as slowly as possible because back when I got loans, the interest rates were low and mine are at .8%. But I did also try and limit the amount of loans I took and ended up with about $40k. I also have generally driven economical cars and am now driving a 2007 because it still works fine. This aspect of being frugal is tough for me though because I do love cars.
AS for saving, I've worked at big firms that had 401k matching and tried to take advantage of that such that my retirement account is worth around $600k. But I've also been around long enough to remember my retirement account losing 75% of its value back in 2009-2010. Part of my retirement plan is also to move away from places like Las Vegas where housing is expensive and move to some place cheaper like the midwest (even though I'm not from there) where I can buy a nice house with land using cash. Sadly, I don't believe I'll be able to retire any time soon and I can't imagine not working after I'm 65. I would get into trouble and there are way too many mouths to feed anyway.
40. Net worth of about $600k, almost all of that is my house and investments. Some, but not all, of those investments are in retirement accounts (401k and Roths for spouse and I). 2021 is the first year I will max out the 401k and Roths for spouse and I, which I feel pretty good about. Wish I had been more disciplined sooner, but I still have time. I would like to retire early. I am not a money grubber, so I am content to live on less now to make that happen. I drive modest used cars. If I splurge on anything, it's vacations and other family experiences because, as Louis Prima said, enjoy yourself, it's later than you think!
Mid 50's had a very fortunate career. Kids past college with no debt. Paid the mortgage off some time ago. Zero consumer debt 5mm+ in the bank. You cannot believe how good it feels to have FU money.
That is awesome and also makes me feel horrible for myself at the same time. I'm early 40s and, including my 401k, have a net worth of about $400K. I know that it will grow with time, but it is still tough to imagine. Plus I'm still carrying some student loan debt that has about 7 years left. Debating whether to pay it off sooner, but struggle because it would involve cashing in on equity if my house. I'm one of those people that had student loans and decided to get a house too. Would love to be debt free, but I also enjoy living and know that low interest rates won't last forever.
3:08, what's your student loan interest rate? Can you refi those to a rate close to what a cash out refi rate would be?
2:18 PM,
Well done. Any advice as to wealth building?
46. $5MM in real estate/stocks/bonds/IRAs but dispersed in trusts so that liabilities are fireproofed from each other. I dont have Cook Islands type monies but it feels good that if the apocalypse hits that I probably can survive the economic zombies. On the other hand I have had to be strategic because with appreciation I am over the homestead limit and NRS 21.090 exemptions for retirement accounts.
Advice on wealth building? Save and invest (duh). Follow Buffett's advice of being “fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful.” Maximize employee matching unless you are the employer and then maximize self-matching.
4:42 raises a really good point that goes along with retirement planning which is asset protection. Like it or not, we are targets for clients. I would be interested to know what other attorneys are doing for asset protection.
This year has made me focus like a laser on 1 thing – saving, investing and shooting for retirement. I have set up a simple IG account tracking my progress and am actively trading, maxing out retirement savings, Simple IRA, Roth IRA, buying stocks, crypto and dumping a significant amount of money in this endeavor for 4 years total – started July 1 and will end June 30, 2025. Merely saving in a 401k is meaningless if you do not know your financial needs at retirement, or how to propel that income further through growth stock, dividend stock, property, etc. Biggest mistake we make is tolerate crap for years as lawyers and have zero clue how to save, invest and create wealth from our incomes to become self-sustaining. Creating income without having to work for it is the key to life – some are trust fund babies, I am not and so we have to be smarter and dedicated. The stock market is the ONLY thing rigged in this world that we can actually freely choose to join and gain from – don't hate the market, embrace it and find downturns as buying opportunities. Best to everyone.
Bitcoin. Sell the car. Sell the house. Sell your furniture. Buy Bitcoin.
I used to really enjoy being a lawyer. Now I'm really really tired of it. I think it's mainly all the added shit that came with the pandemic, but I also want to do a great job raising my son, and so I now feel guilty when I'm at the office at 6, whereas I used to think it made no sense to ever leave the office before 7. We'll see. 40. HHI of 700k/year (this is fairly recent – the COVID inflation is no joke). $1.3 M in stocks/cash. Rent my house because I'm dumb and never think it's the right time to buy.
I will never retire. I love the practice of law. I love helping people and solving problems. It is not perfect. But I have reached critical mass where I feel that I can do the work that I want to do for the clients for whom I want to work. Most liberating feeling in the world.
Everyone needs to have short-term disability (or self-funded equivalent) and, more important, long-term disability. Don't take the chance of intending to never retire, oh to be forced to.
Jeff Silver and Gerry Gordon are working well into their 70s, successful.
I think working keeps you alive.
Not sure I qualify as mid-career, but at 35 I am ready to retire or change gears. On paper I could probably do it, but it's hard to imagine doing anything (or nothing) else. It is also very easy to keep moving the goal post. Years ago, I figured we needed about $2-3MM to retire early. Paid off my student loans quickly, live debt free, and have managed to accumulate a net worth of $2.5MM not including primary residence. Mission accomplished, right? Nope. Gotta keep working/saving, because what if…
40, and I am worth over a million. Feel very fortunate. All I can say is save all of your money, and invest some.
I love working, and I love making money.