- Quickdraw McLaw
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A reader wants your input/advice. We’ll frame the question in the form of a hypothetical:
Wilma graduated from UNLV Boyd School of Law in 2013 and passed the bar exam that summer. Since then she has jumped firms several times and is currently unhappily employed at Flintstone & Associates, her fourth firm. She wants to find a new job that she can be at long term, but isn’t getting many interviews–a fact that she attributes to the multiple firms on her resume and lack of experience.
Is there anything she can to rectify that? Do you have any advice for her? Is she doomed?
Millenials…. (shaking head).
LOL!
The worthless generation of child adults who need constant validation whether earned or not who can't handle criticism without being immediately defensive. I weep for the future of America.
Thank you for the courage to say what is true.
Yes – suck it up and work at her current firm for another 2-3 years then try again. She doesn't want to find another job she can be at long term; she THINKS she wants to find another firm that she can be at long-term. Until she has actually BEEN at a job long-term, she doesn't know what it means.
I agree. Kids today (me being one of them) have to learn sooner or later the importance of paying your dues and starting on the ground floor. They can't just graduate law school and think they're going to find the job they love for the rest of their life, and they can't let any little personality conflict or bad day be rationale to jump ship.
Why would anyone hire someone who won't be there in a month or two months.
Agree with 8:07 a.m. Or perhaps the reason she is unhappy is not the four firms she has been at in less than 2 years, but maybe she chose the wrong career. It doesn't hurt to consider that before going to a fifth firm.
Any new attorney who can snag four jobs in two years in this market should be more than satisfied..
I'm not sure how to do this through blog comments, but I work at a "large" firm and am happy to have a beverage of Wilma's choice to chat about why she's where she's at (both presently and historically) to see if she should (i) suck it up or (ii) re-frame her experience so she gets to a better place (let's face it, some of her past firms could be "past" because of implosions).
Yes, we need to know more about the reasons for Wilma's firm changes before we can give her meaningful advice. Although, to be fair, suck it up for a while is, in fact, good advice.
She needs to figure out why she is so unhappy. It could be the firm, it could be unrecognized personal issues, it could be that she obliviously isn't getting work because she isn't making the partners happy, or her ego is getting in the way. We need more details about why the other jobs are not working.
8:07 is right. She's got to stay for a while before she can move again. Not only will this improve her chances at getting her preferred job but it will also motivate her to do what she can to improve her own situation (eg. bringing in work she enjoys).
Wilma should spend some time learning to network and market. Bringing in business you enjoy is extremely satisfying and any lawyer building a book of business will find many doors opened for her.
I agree she needs to stick it out at least a year if at all possible. If Wilma thinks she must move now, she needs to have a very good answer to why she has moved around so much and why, if hired at yet another firm, why this next move would be different. Assuming the problem was the employer and not the employee, why did Wilma not look at the 4 previous hiring firms more closely before accepting their offer? Smaller shops might be willing to take a chance on someone with this many laterals, but I would keep in mind that if the next firm is not a good match, it will just be that much harder to do it again (and, of course, the next firm will know that as well).
Yes, you need to stick it out another year or two. You’ve lost credibility and you need to recharge that. Although, time in four different pastures might suggest to you that the grass is rarely greener. Market realities are the same everywhere.
In the meantime, and most important, LEARN and DEVELOP where you are. Perhaps you and your work product are the reason things haven’t worked out. Become the associate everyone hoped for when they hired you, one they would have begged to stay. Don’t think about leaving again until another firm is poaching you. Until that happens, you would benefit from humbly reevaluating your self-perception.
I have a question that speaks to the other side of this experience — is there an amount of time that is TOO long as an associate at a small-to-mid-size firm? I'm speaking about a firm where the prospect of making partner is not really in the cards. When should one move on?
When you get an offer from another firm that will lateral you into partnership or give you a very short period of time to make partner. Remember, though, you don't make partner (and by partner I mean 'equity partner') if you don't bring your own clients and generate your own clients. If you're damn good at the attorney thing but can't bring in clients, you're "Of Counsel" or 'billing partner'.
It seems, then, like there is a point in time where you'll be expected to bring your own book of business instead of just coming on as a lateral. How long is that? Five years?
You never want to be a senior associate (or even a junior partner) without a book of business. You're expendable and no one will want to hire you unless it is for an in house position. The lesson – build your book!
Question – how do you build a book of business when you work for an insurance defense house? The adjusters aren't hiring you, they are hiring the name on the door. So when you walk out after 4-5 years, what clients can you bring with you?
You try to build your relationship with the adjuster and then apply to get on panel.
Wilma should probably suck it up, unless she's at Alverson Taylor. I've known at least 4 people at Alverson Taylor that didn't realize how bad their firm was until they left and went elsewhere.
I'm guessing this is probably one of the 4 firms she has worked or is working at.
Does any associate/junior partner work at a firm like this: http://abovethelaw.com/2015/05/biglaw-firm-only-wants-big-clients/
I do, and when I try to bring in business, it's clear that the firm thinks it's more of a hassle than it's worth. No one has explicitly said "don't bring in clients that pay us less than 50k per year," but their attitude shows it.
How do guys like me build a book of business? Move to a smaller firm? Only become friends with the biggest business owners in Vegas?
I do the same things I did on my Mormon mission.
1. OYM= Open Your Mouth. Always be talking to new people. At Court. In line at the grocery store. At kids birthday parties. When you're out socializing. Always be meeting new people, and be a good, genuine listener.
2. Build real friendships and relationships. "Networking" is a bullshit phrase used by people who only want to take and and nothing to give. Be a friend and a resource without expectation of immediate payback, and for the inherent value of being a friend. Do this, and you will be reciprocated.
3. Do good work. People need to know that when they give you their business, or refer someone, you're going to deliver.
4. Help people out in a jam. Small legal issues. Traffic tickets. People remember this kind of stuff later.
Good points. I'm still not sure how realistic it is for an attorney with less than 10 years of practice to routinely bring in big matters (50k+ in billables). I've brought in some 20k and under matters, and the partners seem irritated that I'm wasting the firm's time. We've had firm meetings where partners will say "don't bring in small clients–they can cause conflicts and don't make us as much money," which is all fine and good, but that's the type of client I can bring in. It pisses me off to send work down the road, but I do a lot of that.
1:08 & 12:36,
I was admitted in 2011. I have originated some big matters, but also a lot of smaller ones. My firm gives me the resources to get out and talk with people (pay for memberships, lunches, events, etc). My firm is grateful for whatever I bring in, and they commission me on it. Sometimes the small things end up becoming big, and sometimes matters that initially look like big litigation resolve quickly. I have friends that work in big firms and when I talk with them, I have to shake my head at how bad those firms are at developing marketing skills in their associates. Of course an attorney with less than 10 years isn't going to consistently originate matters with high five and low six figures. But by developing anything and everything, I believe that skill set can be developed over time. Maybe you should move to a smaller place that understands this.
1:01: I must have been a missionary in another life. You are correct. I love meeting people and helping people.
1:22,
The difference between you and I is probably that this comes to you naturally, while I am by default socially inept and had to go on a mission to begin to figure these things out.
1:08
1:22: what type of origination credit do you get? I had an interview lately with a firm that didn't give origination credit for matters below $50k in billables, and then you got something like 10% of the billables. To be fair, the position owuld pay almost 200k in base salary for an associate, so it's not like they're total tight-wads.
3:52,
My base pay is much, much lower – about half in fact. I get 20%. $200k is a good deal. Also remember, that originating work is work I have to do on top of my billable requirement. Granted, these are mostly social functions, but still, sometimes I'm exhausted and would just rather go home and veg out.
Do what the senior partners in your firm do: stab each other in the back every chance they get and steal each other's "big" clients. If you work for a large firm here in Southern NV then chances are good that all of the clients who are desirable to your firm are already either (1) clients of a senior partner or (2) conflicted out. You will never get anywhere unless you leave and go some place that values every partner and every client, not just the gray-hair in the corner office and his bully of a gray-hair client.
If you are under 28, take stock of your life and goals. Do you want to have kids? How about a strong, loving husband? If so, forget about your career troubles and focus on finding a husband NOW. I assume you are attractive and intelligent. How else could you get four jobs in two years in a bad market? If you sincerely apply yourself, you can bag a good, strong man who can provide for you and the kids. You still have some market value and can land a strong man whose arms you can fall into at night. If you wait too long, you will be stuck fishing a stale pond full of half-men, wussies, failures and vagabonds. Get going while the going is good.
If you are over 28 or want to focus on your career so you can be alone and childless at 50, then I suggest the opposite: Every hour of the day must be dedicated to either billing, originating or self-improvement. There are plenty of CLEs in Nevada and California that will help you become a star in your field, and help shore up your weaknesses in areas necessary to allow your core abilities to come through. Be realistic about your core strengths. No one likes or appreciates a round peg in a square hole.
Once you are committed to the goal driven lifestyle, all the petty worries at work and with co-workers will disappear. Please don't end up like my sister-in-law who is endlessly switching jobs and bitching about wherever she is at any given time. She married and divorced two very serviceable guys and is now pushing 50 with no hope of happiness or reproducing. At 50, you don't snuggle your billable hours at night. Embrace the good life.
Good luck!
Wow. Just wow….
I can't tell if you are serious or if this is a joke, but I laughed out loud several times reading this.
FTW!
Hey! I'll have you know that room-temperature bottles of merlot happen to be very snuggly! Who needs a crying brat or a crying brat-man?
I would offer up two suggestions maybe they won't directly pertain to the specific situation but do in a way.
1) Save up and make sure you have some "f*** you money" that is money you can tell any boss to f off and not worry about a job for awhile, it can be tough to get to this level of financial security, but it is good to have.
2) The other thing I would say is to have one foot out the door (not in the work you are doing), especially if the reason you have been at multiple firms is due to implosion. If you aren't getting the work from partners or don't have a good feeling about things start passively looking by feeling out your friends/colleagues who seem to enjoy what they do, if any offer up that their firm is hiring and you think it would be a position you'd enjoy go for it.
I think particularly over the last few years several of the firms, especially the smaller ones that don't pay as well have treated people they bring in like s*** and burn through them knowing they won't walk away and even if they do there are 5 other people who'd gladly take the spot (several who interviewed me have said as much when they asked what salary requirements I had). If you aren't happy at the firm, I would definitely be looking elsewhere for a better opportunity.
Boy. Law students, or about-to-be law students should be reading this blog to see if that investment in time and bucks is going to pay off in the way they think. It's not like it looks on TV, apparently.
They have the internet. They see the stories. But it doesn't phase them because he Millenial ha been raised by inept parents to believe they are a special snowflake who will always beat the odds because they are so gosh darned *SPECIAL*. Seriously, a millenial in college reading this post right now is seriously thinking to himself, "Well, it won't be a problem for me. This struggling attorney isn't smart and hard working and special like me. I'm smart and hard working and special, so I'm not worried. Now, where do I sign for $150,000 in non-dischargable student loans at 6.8% interest?"
Amen, brother. I got lucky back in the day before Boyd flooded the market. There are attorneys out there who make $60k a year. OMG. First, how do you survive on that. Second, how do you survive and pay student loans?
I agree. I got through law school just before the market went bust and I feel like I lucked out. Tuition was half of what it is now at Boyd so my student loans are "manageable." I'm out on my own and I make a decent living. But for those going to law school now who expect to get $100k+ salary jobs and think they can incur $150k in student loans, I'd say you're just crazy.
Go get a job being a driver for UPS. Better benefits and a decent salary and no student loan debt.
Those UPS guys look so hot in those shorts. I love my twice daily viewings.
@ 12:35, if you're a single person and you can't survive on 60k a year in Las Vegas, you have a serious budgeting problem, even if you're paying the $1000 per month in student loans.