- Quickdraw McLaw
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- $10,000 demand, threats to kill a lawyer leads to extortion charges over real estate dispute. [8NewsNow]
- Sex trafficking charge dropped in “love slave’ contract case. [RJ]
- Documents detail Tony Hsieh’s final weeks alive. [8NewsNow]
- Harvard and Yale Law will no longer participate in rankings by US News and World Report. [ABA Journal]
Just need several dozen more law schools to follow suit and I can claim I attended a T14 school!
Lol!
I believe the pressure to dumb down the Nevada bar exam can be traced back to UNLV's desire to be ranked well by US News. If Nevada has a more difficult bar exam (it does), then UNLV will have a lower pass rate than it otherwise would if it were based in say, Utah where basically everyone passes.
I've often wondered if a state legislature could bar its public law schools from participating in these rankings. Perhaps US News will adjust its methodology to appease Harvard and Yale. I hope, however, that this is the death knell of this rankings and the harm they cause legal education, the profession and the public.
Rankings are necessary – no one in my family had gone to law school when I was looking, and I needed help figuring out what was out there. But the US News rankings measure the wrong thing for incoming students. Incoming students should care about three metrics: (1) how much does it cost, (2) how likely am I to pass the bar and (3) how likely am I to get a job. Those are the rankings we need.
Disagree that they are necessary. You know an Ivy, Big 10, Pac 12 school is probably gonna be better than a "mid-major" school, which is probably gonna be better than a small midwestern or Florida school or the unaffiliated TJs of the world. If you don't know it's not hard to find people to ask who would know or read online discussions about it.
But I mainly disagree because of what 10:00 said about major decisions being made at law schools solely based on how it will affect their rankings. Not well-being of the students, staff, and community, but how it will help the rankings. They create perverse incentives and hope this is the beginning of the end.
10:00 AM here. Rankings are totally unnecessary and harm many students. The rankings lead many to believe, for example, that there is some kind of difference between the fiftieth, greatest, most prestigious amazing law school in the land and the sixty-fifth ranked, greatest most amazing law school. When I chose which law school to attend, I ignored the rankings entirely. I selected my law school based upon the cost of tuition and the anticipated earnings upon graduation. That method, in hindsight, was absolutely correct and has had a positive impact on my life. That's the right analysis. Without US News, more prospective students are likely to make better decisions about where to go to school.
Ivy League law schools are not what they used to be. Their crazy admissions policies place more significance on diversity (one's race and ethnicity) than academic achievement. Harvard Law does not require evidence. It is an elective. Really?
US News Ranking is about perception, not quality. I have worked with and against Harvard and Yale grads. Many are good, but not superior to good lawyers from lesser tiered schools. More Ivy grads than you would believe are at best only average performers.
I went to a midwest (Big 10 university) law school. I am proud of my education and accomplishments in life. But who are we kidding about trying to talk down the Ivys? They are full of the best of the best who are incredibly motivated and who pay HUGE money to get a top-notch education. Do some end up mediocre lawyers or law professors? Heck yes. But I would posit unscientifically that the average member of the 3rd quartile from Yale Class of 1996 outperforms, outearns and is demonstrably more accomplished than the average member of the 3rd quartile from University of Indiana Class of 1996. Is that because of quality of education, quality of enrollees, quality of networking? Who cares. There are anecdotal examples of exceptions but lets not overlook the obvious evidence just to make those of us who graduated debt free from a state school feel better.
Graduating debt free from a state school would impress me more than an Ivy league grad, in Nevada. If I were in New York, I'd probably feel different. Why would an Ivy league grad, if not for family ties, practice in Nevada? I know an Ivy-leaguer who didn't pass the NV bar exam on the first try, yet I did with my lowly 2nd tier school (not UNLV). Since then, it's always made me question what Ivy league grads are doing here. Maybe that's not a fair assessment. And, didn't I read on this blog that one of the NV Supreme Court contenders had a Ivy league law degree and, and I don't think that person was in the top 3. Goes to show even a top law school degree doesn't always get you what you want.
I shouldn't say "get you what you want." I should have said it doesn't always set you apart the way people think Ivy League degrees should/do. Unless you can get a scholarship to cover most or all tuition and fees, stick to a state school with the goal of graduating debt free.
Attorney who has a stroke chewed out on tv for not attending trial. https://abovethelaw.com/2022/11/faking-a-stroke-seems-like-a-hell-of-a-way-to-delay-a-murder-trial/
I feel bad for anyone who attended one of those diploma mill law schools in Californaia. The rankings help by placing those places as unranked or at the bottom.
I agree. I taught as a diploma mill as an adjunct and I felt really shitty for the students. Many of them were nice kids that had no business in law school, and most certainly wouldn't pass the bar exam, but the school was happy to take their $50k a year.
Well, your elitism is showing. The rankings don't consider that some of the CA schools flunk out nearly 50% of the entering students by the end of the second semester. My impression is that once admitted to Boyd, you can't flunk.
12:46, I can't tell what your point is. Is taking in a bunch of unqualified students, charging them all $50k, and then flunking half of them a business model that you find morally above board? Because I don't. That's not about elitism. It's about being disgusted by a business model built on making money by taking advantage of people.
@1:33
Or perhaps, giving good people an opportunity they would not otherwise have had, but for these "mills". Everyone takes the same bar exam.
12:46/2:17 went to one of the CA diploma mills
Went to a shit law school. Have my own firm with 9 lawyers. Many of my friends went to a shit law schools, like Boyd, Cal Western, Thomas Jefferson, etc. We all make 7 figures and 2 make 8 figures in some years. Practicing law is a business, not moot court. Do quality work, make your clients feel great and bring in business. It is that simple.
11:36 – first, your claim that Boyd is properly lumped in with the "shit law schools" is just not accurate. Cal Western's bar passage rate is 55% to Boyd's 79%, and Thomas Jefferson is not even an accredited school.
Second, is your PI firm hiring?! I'm tired of doing all this actual legal work and would love to make 7 figures doing "business".
@8:43 Boyd's pass rate. Don't be too sure or proud about it. I came in from out of state. Took one of the better known bar study course. Found a link for Boyd grads, from the school, strongly suggesting that the grads take one additional supplemental prep class. I took the hint. Guess what? EVERY question on my exam was a lecture and practice exam on the prep course. There were NO practice exams or lectures on a topic that was not on the bar exam. Take away – SBN/Boyd leaked the exam topics. Why? to keep Boyd's ranking.
@6:02 That's all you got? You are an elitist.
Make fun of me all you want. I read the same cases they did at Harvard. With my LSAT and grades I could have went there if my financial situation, etc. were different i.e., I would not leave my family in Nevada. The main difference in the results of attending the Ivy League schools is not in the education but in the socialization, staying in the club, networking, etc. I have beaten those from "better" schools and lost to those from "worse" schools. To be clear, I would have loved to go to Harvard, etc. but not for the education but for the assistance with my career.
One way to look at it is that hiring associates is hard. Firms get a pile of resumes. We want someone that can research and write well, and great if they can take a good depo and make a good court appearance. But how to know if that's the case? One way to make an educated guess is to look for signals. Did he or she go to a school that has a stringent admission standard? Did he or she go to a name brand firm or clerkship where there was probably good training (which jobs usually only hire from name schools)? Looking at it like that makes it easier to cut the stack of resumes down.
Another way to look at it is that it's also hard for clients to know who is a good lawyer, and we all want clients to think we are the best lawyer to hire because that's how we make money. If the clients we want to land are going to be impressed by Harvard and Yale resumes, and not impressed by Boyd resumes, then we really have an incentive to hire from Harvard and Yale and not from Boyd.
Another way to look at it is that most people are risk averse if they can be. So if you work in HR at a law firm, it's comforting to see a name brand school, because no one in HR ever got fired for recommending the Harvard or Yale grad. Same with the hiring partner or hiring committee. A name brand school is comforting.
So even if the Harvard or Yale grad isn't necessarily the best lawyer, it's easy to see why he or she would be hired over a person from Boyd or whatever.
Sure. "With my LSAT and grades I could have WENT there"
OP back – believe me or not, I'm just an anon person on the blog, but I had I think a 97th-98th percentile LSAT and a 3.9 something GPA with a MA thesis tract with another 3.9 something. I also had a US Senator write my rec letter and got a full ride where I went. If that wasn't good enough then I stand corrected. But I think it might have been. Mildly amusing story: I'm kinda chubby so when I took the LSAT they had us in these tight chairs at community college (in Vegas) and I couldn't breathe well – I honestly think I could have aced it 100% if not for that.
These kinds of discussions always remind me of the scene in Mad Men when Michael says "I feel bad for you" and Don responds "I don't think about you at all." I promise you people who went to Harvard or Yale are not making fun of people who went to Thomas Jefferson or Cal Western. But people who went to lower ranked schools seem to love posting about what people who went to Harvard or Yale probably think of them.
I once scored five touchdowns in high school. Rhodes Scholar material and any of the Ivys would have taken me. 6:33 is exactly right- no one who legitimately went to an Ivy League school feels the need to punch down at Cooley grads.
I love that in response to pointing out not-Harvard-guy's grammar error, not-Harvard-guy writes a silly diatribe ignoring that he was called out for his grammar error and listing his resume from when he was 22. Close the yearbook, pal.
I don't think not-Harvard-guy realized realized 4:17 was calling out a grammar error, which makes the exchange even more funny.
"How much you wanna make a bet 6:08 PM can throw a football over them mountains?… Yeah… Coach woulda put 6:08 PM in fourth quarter, we would've been state champions. No doubt. No doubt 6:08 PM's mind."
I can't figure out the grammar error. Boyd 13 here.
OP back, what is funny to me is that some posters think those grades and LSAT are so unattainable they must be a lie haha, not really a big deal, also I was RESPONDING to someone not living in the past, and yes, I can throw a football a quarter mile haha
Great napoleon reference 9:33!
OP, your tactic to distract us from your grammar error isn't going to work, Harvard LSAT or not.
If OP was unable/disinclined to leave his family in Nevada and intended to practice here, obviously that can be a determining factor and frankly more important than "prestige" provided career goals don't involve power politics or academia.
That being said, I don't think OP is correct that his creds were necessarily Harvard material. 97-98 percentile on the LSAT is usually about 169-170, which I believe is at or below Harvard's bottom 25th quartile for incoming students (at least it was when I was applying). GPA is far less important than LSAT in admissions decisions given the high correlation between LSAT score and first-year law school grades, which in turn is used to weed out 2L biglaw summer positions. It's also why those firms will apply different 1L GPA metrics to different tiers of the T14. The logic seems to be that the better the incoming class's LSAT score, the better proxy the White Shoe firms have to predict "success," as they define it. I've heard anecdotes of V10 firms whose clients would refuse to staff particular senior associates on a case based on a single bad grade in law school. It may seem a bit arbitrary, but those firms' clients are the ones financing 190k first-year associate salaries and 50-100k judicial clerkship bonuses. So, their gold, their rules.
As for the soft factors OP listed, many incoming Harvard students will have advanced degrees and recommendation letters from major political players. Certainly the HLS kids I know/knew all seemed to have them.
It's more likely that OP would have gotten into Berkeley or Stanford, which focus more on GPA than LSAT (Stanford's bottom LSAT quartile is typically 3 to 6 points below HLS's). Financially, OP would have likely received a close-to or full ride at one of the middle T14, or at least one the lower T14. But, again, it makes little sense to leave Nevada if current commitments and future intents are all here.
IMO, also correct that HLS folks don't tend to punch down to the Cooley / TJSL level. If folks from the top schools want a punching bag, they'll typically pick one of the lower T14 to do that, because those schools represent the closest thing they have to actual competition for the jobs they want.
Awful news about attorney from Lewis Roca and her family. Lots of gloom in the air lately. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/police-identify-5-family-members-found-dead-in-phoenix-home/2022/11/17/82e0ee96-66c1-11ed-b08c-3ce222607059_story.html
Oh my god!
Unreal. I'm pretty sure I spoke to her years back. Really terrible.
That is so horrible. Wow. So sad.
This is heartbreaking. Marla was warm and funny and really smart. I can't fathom how a father would kill her and their precious children.
She was in the year after mine, nice as can be. So terrible.
Wow…just saw this. I knew Marla at UNLV. Very smart & kind person. I remember seeing her at classmates’ parties & walking over to 7-11 with her to get caffeine & sugar with her before class. This is very shocking & sad news. Such a tragic & unfortunate ending to her life & those of her children. RIP Marla
Speaking of horrors. Yesterday was the sentencing for the dad (Melton) who killed his son because his son was gay. The mom that was on the news was Veronica Melton who was (is?) a long time employee of the State Bar of Nevada. She worked in Attorney Benefits and LRIS I believe.
Looked her up. Appears that she left the State Bar before 2018. Here is the story. https://www.8newsnow.com/news/local-news/man-found-guilty-in-sons-shooting-death-sentenced-to-28-years-to-life/
Attorney Corner is also down
This is a gossip blog so I hope this is a fair game question. If not I understand. I heard from two different sources that the Harter story is related to investigations regarding his bankruptcy filings. Has anyone else heard anything that would corroborate those rumors?
You know nothing John Snow.
If you knew the Judge or were at all close to his family. You would know that this is utter nonsense. The judge suffered from severe depression. Obviously.
Investigations by whom?
Anyone else see the self-congratulatory bullshit posted by the State Bar of Nevada and LACSN celebrating the service of Hardesty? Someone at some point in time is going to "Pat McCarran" this guy and finally speak what we all know which is that he has been incredibly destructive to law and the practice of law in the State of Nevada. Goodbye and good riddance.
Watch the rules changes coming next year! He has been the only road block on several changes.
In arguments before the NVSC, I always found Hardesty to be the least prepared, the most arrogant and the most dominant in taking up time for questions. I have been looking forward to his retirement for quite some time.